High Volume Chem Transfer - ideas??

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

Time is money.  We all know that.  And standing around waiting for a tank on your rig to fill is not what I want to be doing when I have tons of work in the pipeline.  If you have your SH stored in drums, or totes, I have a commercial grade solution for you that is very fast, and made for a SH environment.  They're Thompson FTI Drum pumps with sealed motors.  Let me warn you in advance, they are spendy.  BUT, a local SH supplier that I use from time to time has had one in operation for years with no problems.  This is in a commercial environment, and it does NOT get rinsed.  Pump and motor will likely run $1500 or more.  I would guess they're running at about 25-30 GPM or better with no/low head.  Details can be found here.    They're AC powered and you can use a foot switch to control them.   So this is a commercial grade, high volume solution, if you don't require much suction lift.

On the other hand, I need about a 8' suction lift.  Ugh.  Read on in the next posts if you can provide any insight.

 

 

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

I'm in the middle of changing SH storage locations.  More expensive, but closer to home.  At the old location (pics below) the water source had extremely high volume.  This allowed for using water to prime a non-priming pump AND it's 1.5" lines if/when suction was broken and air got in the line.  A $200 pool pump moved that SH quite nicely and the same high volume water supply allowed for it to be rinsed quickly as well.  Notice the plumbing mounted to the wall.  Two companies shared this set-up, so we could select tanks among other things.  We could literally fill a tank up within a few minutes and be on our way.

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

And then we moved....  No more high volume water supply line.  It's a LONG 1/2" pvc run, so priming those 1.5" pipes with water for the pool pump arrangement is out of the question.  Oh yeah, if you haven't figured it out yet, the tank is about 8' tall.  So a drum pump like the one I originally mentioned wont work.

So I'm looking down the barrel of about $2700 hit (list price) on a commercial grade pump, made for a SH environment, that has enough suction lift to self prime.

Has anyone come up with a better commercial grade solution?  By that I don't mean Delavans.

Thoughts and insight appreciated.

 

 

[Atlas1]

Talk to Kevin (Peak of Perfection) sounds like you need to set up an AODD.

[PeakOfPerfection]

1" Kynar AODD pump with a compressor is the ticket. That is what I use for transfer. Do you by chance have 220 volt or three phase power? If so, you can get a larger stand alone compressor. If you have three phase, they are cheap since not as many people have three phase power. I have rebuilt 1" Kynar pumps starting at $499 that will easily draw 8 ft. Good 30 CFM comp and you are at a solid 30 GPM through 1" fill hose. 

If you can find a cheap 100 CFM tow behind diesel compressor, and they are out there and you want SPEED.... I also have a rebuilt 2" Kynar pump that will do a meager 150  GPM through 2" lines. You can put 30 gallons into a 100 gallon mix tank in 12 seconds at that flow rate. That one has a completely brand new center air section. Make me an offer. 

[Curb Appeal Pros LLC]

man just buy a cheap 1 in pump off ebay that's new and save money just rinse it use your air compressor on your rig to pump its you don't have to buy another compressor to run it... Your only transferring chem so why drop so much money to transfer that's just our opinion.  We now to mini bulk and have a valve at the bottom of our 100 gallon tank and suck it out from the bottom its fast easy and cheap.. If you want to spend a lot of money I am sure you can find a easy solution.

[Shingle Brite]

 

1" air pump is a good option. However, if you buy a used aodd pump for any roof cleaning operation be prepared to be disappointed. Chances are very good the pump will be 10 years + old and parts may or may not be even be available. Be prepared to have the used pump crap out in a year or less and then having to try to learn how to repair it IF you can find the parts and it's NOT easy to repair the air end if you've never done it. Time is money and spending an entire day or more working a pump doesn't cut it. 

Save yourself a lot of headaches and just buy new. It may cost you more up front but having a crapped out used pump AND a brand new one isn't cheap either! 

[PeakOfPerfection]

man just buy a cheap 1 in pump off ebay that's new and save money just rinse it use your air compressor on your rig to pump its you don't have to buy another compressor to run it... Your only transferring chem so why drop so much money to transfer that's just our opinion.  We now to mini bulk and have a valve at the bottom of our 100 gallon tank and suck it out from the bottom its fast easy and cheap.. If you want to spend a lot of money I am sure you can find a easy solution.

I don't think Ted runs air on his trucks. He is all electric on his rigs last time I checked. He hasn't yet been brought over to the Dark Side.

And for doing constant high volume 12.5% SH transfers in a high volume operation like he has, paying the little big extra for a more efficient Kynar pump makes sense. Ive got a 1" ARO Kynar with a brand new center air section for $499 that will easily outpump and outlast one of the 1" Chinese pumps (typically QBY's)  you see on Ebay that are Husky 1040 clones and usually have Santoprene diaphragms. Santoprene is fine for running 4% solutions, but it will get stiff and start to go away if you do a lot of high % transfers with it. Teflon or Viton are better bets. 

 

[Curb Appeal Pros LLC]

I don't think Ted runs air on his trucks. He is all electric on his rigs last time I checked. He hasn't yet been brought over to the Dark Side.

And for doing constant high volume 12.5% SH transfers in a high volume operation like he has, paying the little big extra for a more efficient Kynar pump makes sense. Ive got a 1" ARO Kynar with a brand new center air section for $499 that will easily outpump and outlast one of the 1" Chinese pumps (typically QBY's)  you see on Ebay that are Husky 1040 clones and usually have Santoprene diaphragms. Santoprene is fine for running 4% solutions, but it will get stiff and start to go away if you do a lot of high % transfers with it. Teflon or Viton are better bets. 

 

The reason I said the cheap ebay pumps is because we got a rebuild Kynar pump from you and it lasted 8 months before it started leaking like crazy and I think we paid 799 for it and now every local shop says its to old to get parts for so now its a paper weight. So the cheap ebay pumps are not kynar that's for sure but they will last 1 year so I can go 3 years of buying new pumps vs 1 year. That's all I was saying  On our rigs we now run new ARO pumps with Teflon and they are fantastic but for chem transfer I am all about cheap options like pool pumps, cheap knock off pumps, or even gravity feeding it however that's not the fastest option out there.

[PeakOfPerfection]

The reason I said the cheap ebay pumps is because we got a rebuild Kynar pump from you and it lasted 8 months before it started leaking like crazy and I think we paid 799 for it and now every local shop says its to old to get parts for so now its a paper weight. So the cheap ebay pumps are not kynar that's for sure but they will last 1 year so I can go 3 years of buying new pumps vs 1 year. That's all I was saying  On our rigs we now run new ARO pumps with Teflon and they are fantastic but for chem transfer I am all about cheap options like pool pumps, cheap knock off pumps, or even gravity feeding it however that's not the fastest option out there.

Ironically enough, you got a Husky 1040...same pumps as you find on Ebay in clone form. And parts *are* readily available for that pump, not sure why the local shops told you otherwise unless they just wanted to sell you a new pump. Send it over and let me take a look at it. Typically the only reason you get leaks is because of a diaphragm issue unless the manifolds were damaged. Hell, I probably have them in stock and would have warranted it for you. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by PeakOfPerfection

[Curb Appeal Pros LLC]

Ironically enough, you got a Husky 1040...same pumps as you find on Ebay in clone form. And parts *are* readily available for that pump, not sure why the local shops told you otherwise unless they just wanted to sell you a new pump. Send it over and let me take a look at it. Typically the only reason you get leaks is because of a diaphragm issue unless the manifolds were damaged. 

 

We replaced all our pumps already I mean the last thing I want to do is pay shipping on a pump and then have to pay for it to be rebuild again and then shipping back. It was fully rebuilt the 1st time and it crapped out. As far as parts being available I went to 3 different local pump companies that all do repairs and they sell that brand of pump. They said the pump is so old that its hard to find the right parts for it they suggested trying ebay for universal off brand parts since the pump was over 10 years old. So I am just saying a cheap ebay pump would last 9 months like this one but at a fraction of the cost. I mean our new ARO pumps brand new with Teflon ended up being like 100 dollars more than our 10 year old rebuilt kynar pump.

[Aqua Clean Solutions Inc]

Why cant you tap into the bottom of the SH tank with a 2 inch bulkhead and draw as you were with the pool pump?

[PeakOfPerfection]

We replaced all our pumps already I mean the last thing I want to do is pay shipping on a pump and then have to pay for it to be rebuild again and then shipping back. It was fully rebuilt the 1st time and it crapped out. As far as parts being available I went to 3 different local pump companies that all do repairs and they sell that brand of pump. They said the pump is so old that its hard to find the right parts for it they suggested trying ebay for universal off brand parts since the pump was over 10 years old. So I am just saying a cheap ebay pump would last 9 months like this one but at a fraction of the cost. I mean our new ARO pumps brand new with Teflon ended up being like 100 dollars more than our 10 year old rebuilt kynar pump.

Her is the reality on the air diaphragm pumps...they don't really change. The ARO pumps you have...they are probably a 6661A-344c. They have been making that exact same pump for 25+ years. Same manifolds, same diaphragms, same air end valve. If I sent you a 20 year old ARO, you could take the air end kit out of it, pop it in your current pumps and they would work perfectly. 

The Husky 1040 had a long run and tons of them are out there. The current clones being sold on EBay are Husky pumps...Husky changed to a different design in the 1050 to increase their output and the OEMS just sell them under their own name. The parts are all sourced from the same Chinese manufacturers as they have always been...whether you buy  a Husky or ARO. The whole idea of "off brand parts" is malarkey. They all come from the same Chinese sources. I have about ten of those Husky 1040 pumps out in the field with no problems. As for the air end being difficult...hell, that is one of the easiest air ends there is to rebuild. I can do one in 10 minutes. Wait until you do the ARO. You have to pull the pump down to zero to change the pilot valve. 

 

I rebuilt more pumps than most pump shops will ever see. The only reason I don't do it actively anymore is because a lot of the manufacturers like Yamada are trying to push new pump sales by requiring very large repair parts orders, so my parts margins shrunk massively and I just couldn't afford to stock that many kits with the low margins I was making.  Plus I had a ton of demand for complete skids and custom builds. 

I'll cover the shipping for the repair. If it just needs an air end kit, I have them in stock. Also have diaphragms. 

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

Thanks everyone, for the input.  If anyone else has a commercial grade solution to share, please do chime in.  Some clarification based on comments above:

 

No 3 phase power on site.

No compressors on my trucks.

I want to keep this simple and bullet proof.  We treat 5-10 roofs a day in Virginia alone, and down-time or delays with chem transfers cost me money, not to mention it  frustrates the hell out of me.

I can't/won't tap the bottom of the tank (or any chem tank for that matter).  Some rationale as follows:

•    Not mine.  It's my suppliers, not mention they cost about $5000 or so each.
•    It has a built in catch basin in case of a leak or rupture.  Couldn't tap the bottom if you wanted to.
•    A bulkhead leak on a 1200 gallon tank is an EPA nightmare. Not worth the risk.

If there was a sure fire way to prime the existing pool pump in the event that prime is lost, I could keep the $200 pool pump solution.  Given that 8 ft of suction lift is needed, that's a difficult task without a high flow water source.

Surely others have faced this same dilemma I would think.  More research is warranted before I pull the trigger....  Thanks again to those that offered ideas or suggestions.

 

 

[Curb Appeal Pros LLC]

Thanks everyone, for the input.  If anyone else has a commercial grade solution to share, please do chime in.  Some clarification based on comments above:

 

No 3 phase power on site.

No compressors on my trucks.

I want to keep this simple and bullet proof.  We treat 5-10 roofs a day in Virginia alone, and down-time or delays with chem transfers cost me money, not to mention it  frustrates the hell out of me.

I can't/won't tap the bottom of the tank (or any chem tank for that matter).  Some rationale as follows:

•    Not mine.  It's my suppliers, not mention they cost about $5000 or so each.
•    It has a built in catch basin in case of a leak or rupture.  Couldn't tap the bottom if you wanted to.
•    A bulkhead leak on a 1200 gallon tank is an EPA nightmare. Not worth the risk.

If there was a sure fire way to prime the existing pool pump in the event that prime is lost, I could keep the $200 pool pump solution.  Given that 8 ft of suction lift is needed, that's a difficult task without a high flow water source.

Surely others have faced this same dilemma I would think.  More research is warranted before I pull the trigger....  Thanks again to those that offered ideas or suggestions.

 

 

so we are going thru this right now.. They order the tank for us and it has a catch basin as well. They said they would rather us not request a fitting towards the bottom but they will do it. The main reason they dont want to do it is if it leaks its a pain however they maintain the the tank so if it leaks they fix it.. We are using the pool pump. We use to get 300G totes and they had a 2in ball valve at the bottom and a top draw. We used the pool pump for that also but when you draw from the top you still have to prime the pump every single time. We just told them to make the port at the bottom and we will deal with it... I know that does not help you in your situation but maybe buy a cheap HF Compressor and a ebay cheap pump and transfer it that way.. Your price is still under 1k and its pretty easy to do

 

[Aqua Clean Solutions Inc]

What about a raised water tank (35 to 50 gal) fed by your water supply connected to a Hudson float valve in the tank....coming out of the water tank is your 1 1/2 - 2 inch water line with a shut off valve connected to a Y fitting going to the pool pump ( one line goes to the water tank the other to your SH tank (both lines have shut offs on them before the pool pump) This is all gravity fed so there is always water in the lines at all times.  Even if prime is lost just open the water line and fill the pool pump.  Other wise I would bite the bullet and get the pump you were speaking of.

[PeakOfPerfection]

Thanks everyone, for the input.  If anyone else has a commercial grade solution to share, please do chime in.  Some clarification based on comments above:

 

No 3 phase power on site.

No compressors on my trucks.

I want to keep this simple and bullet proof.  We treat 5-10 roofs a day in Virginia alone, and down-time or delays with chem transfers cost me money, not to mention it  frustrates the hell out of me.

I can't/won't tap the bottom of the tank (or any chem tank for that matter).  Some rationale as follows:

•    Not mine.  It's my suppliers, not mention they cost about $5000 or so each.
•    It has a built in catch basin in case of a leak or rupture.  Couldn't tap the bottom if you wanted to.
•    A bulkhead leak on a 1200 gallon tank is an EPA nightmare. Not worth the risk.

If there was a sure fire way to prime the existing pool pump in the event that prime is lost, I could keep the $200 pool pump solution.  Given that 8 ft of suction lift is needed, that's a difficult task without a high flow water source.

Surely others have faced this same dilemma I would think.  More research is warranted before I pull the trigger....  Thanks again to those that offered ideas or suggestions.

 

 

Do you have  single phase power? If so and you have a 50 amp 230v circuit you can get a single phase compressor that will still deliver a goodly amount of CFM. Something like this: 

Eaton 7.5 HP Single Phase Compressor.

Otherwise...you *could* get two of the Eaton gas powered compressors, plumb them together with a shared air tank and check valves. That would give you 40 CFM of air. Problem is, you'd be running them for only short periods of time and the engines won't be happy after a time. 

 

[Atlas1]

so we are going thru this right now.. They order the tank for us and it has a catch basin as well. They said they would rather us not request a fitting towards the bottom but they will do it. The main reason they dont want to do it is if it leaks its a pain however they maintain the the tank so if it leaks they fix it.. We are using the pool pump. We use to get 300G totes and they had a 2in ball valve at the bottom and a top draw. We used the pool pump for that also but when you draw from the top you still have to prime the pump every single time. We just told them to make the port at the bottom and we will deal with it... I know that does not help you in your situation but maybe buy a cheap HF Compressor and a ebay cheap pump and transfer it that way.. Your price is still under 1k and its pretty easy to do

 

if having to re-prime is your only real problem with top draw, why not just go that route and put a check valve in line? (To qualify that suggestion, I have to say that I know little to nothing about pool pumps, and I'm assuming they are self-priming, like a Fatboy, for example) 

 

Another option, if you already run AODDs on your trucks, would be to just set up a stand-alone transfer pump, hook up an air hose to the truck's compressor, and use  that to run the pump when needed. 

[PeakOfPerfection]

if having to re-prime is your only real problem with top draw, why not just go that route and put a check valve in line? (To qualify that suggestion, I have to say that I know little to nothing about pool pumps, and I'm assuming they are self-priming, like a Fatboy, for example) 

 

Another option, if you already run AODDs on your trucks, would be to just set up a stand-alone transfer pump, hook up an air hose to the truck's compressor, and use  that to run the pump when needed. 

Pool pumps need highly positive pressure to run. They literally have to be pressurized or they won't draw. Trying to get one to draw up an 8 ft pipe past a check valve is probably not going to work. They won't even pull from a 55 gallon drum off a check valved draw tube. Been there...done that. 

He doesn't have air on his trucks. All electric pumps. 

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

Looks like I've figured out a solution to continue use of the pool pump.  I have one bug to work out before I can say it with 100% certainty though.  Once that's done, I'll share the very simplistic set up.

Thanks everyone, for the input and suggestions.

 

[Roof Cleaning Virginia]

Works like a charm, even with low water flow.