First Timer here needing help or recommendation!

[carlsoda]

Hey guys. I am new to the softwashing scene but am looking to make a serious go of it as not just a  side business. I am looking for some help in the mixes of chemicals... What works best or a good blending method. Also I have bought what I think are all the necissities but always looking for better and more efficient. Right now I have a rigid air compressor, a 28gpm pump with max of 100 psi connected to a 375 gallon tote that I am using for my chemicals. I was planning on mixing them and caring them in the tote, may be good or bad. I have a dual connector at pump so I can connect a hose from clients house and water for rinsing the roof. All is fed through a 5/8in hose to a nozzle. I am looking at getting the master nozzle if that will help my spray distance. I would love to be able to spray from the ground but I can't seem to get more than about 40 ft. Is there a secret to getting 70ft distance? I have seen guys do it with a 5-10 gpm pump so I know something in my setup must be wrong. Any help yall could offer would be great. Also I check my pressure at the pump and it is getting 90 psi.

 

Happy spraying and hope it is fruitful for me!

[garyw]

What type of pump are you usuing(brand & type). what air pressure are you usuing? 375 gal tote puts you over the limit for DOT.(--$$$$). 3/4" hose will give you more flow and distance. I love my master nozzle!

[carlsoda]

It's a Dayton 3/4 diaphragm pump. max 100psi. I haven't filled tote all the way up, just to about 150 gallons of solution. I just put a splitter on the intake end of the pump where I can run water to for the rinse. Twin tank wheelbarrow compressor made by Rigid I set it on max 100psi as to not blow the pump. I was getting 90psi at the out put valve of the pump when i tested it yesterday. And I just ordered my master nozzle and looking forward to going away from my homemade fabbed wand out of iron pipe and ball fittings and couplers and reducers. Going away from 5/8 will give me more flow and distance with the master nozzle?

[woody70]

Where are you located at?

[garyw]

that is correct. you also need a 1/2 "air line and a 1.5 inch feed tube from your tank to your pump. Max for DOT is 100 gals or 1000 pounds. They consider anything (roof solution) as chlorine. turn your air up another 10psi.

[carlsoda]

Garyw Thank you for the insight. also I am reading that most people have 2 tank setup and I only have one. Am I doing something wrong by mixing the solution ahead of time and adding the soap? If I do 100 gallons at a time that should last me a weekend.... Wil this not work?

 

Woody I am in Gonzales area

[PeakOfPerfection]

You are definitely a bit light on the compressor side for a 3/4" pump and that is limiting your distance and flow. Upgrading to an 18-20 CFM truck mount will give that pump what it needs. As you sit now, you are in 3/8" or light 1/2" pump territory with a twin tank Rigid. 

With air pumps, it is first and foremost all about CFM. Compressors develop higher CFM at lower pressures. So as counterintuitive as it may sound, if you can't quite get the distance on a jobsite, try turning the pressure down. Also, water management is critical when you are under aired. Water is not compressible so the less moisture you have in your air stream, the better your pump will work. A proper air cooling/water separator setup will definitely help. I wrote a posting on water management here recently. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by PeakOfPerfection

[carlsoda]

Thanks Peak, I am about to pull the trigger on membership as this has given me a wealth of info. max cfm for my compressor is 10.4. So turn down the psi is what I am hearing while up grading the hose to a 1/2 in while increasing feed from tank to 1.5in. I have a man lift so I don't think I need to hit 70ft but it sure would be nice.

[PeakOfPerfection]

Even turning down the pressure, you just barely have the CFM needed to run a 3/4" Air pump. It WILL run...but it will be on the weak side and you may get some pump stalling if you run a small nozzle with a high lift situation. Air pumps are pretty flexible but I would have definitely sold you a 1/2" pump for that size compressor. To really get the best out of your pump, you really need more air flow. Also, on a 3/4" pump, you want to run no smaller than 5/8" hose and 3/4" hose will make it WAY happier...particularly if you are light on your compressor. My first air pump was a 3/4" all flow and we initially used 1/2" spray line with it. Changing to 3/4" line made a WORLD of difference on the exact same compressor. The smaller hose will raise the head pressure and that requires more CFM to overcome. Since you don't have more CFM, you need to lower your head pressure and the best way to do this is to run larger, less restrictive hose. This can be seen if you look at an air pump performance curve. 

Here is a performance curve from Yamada (I suspect your Dayton is a rebranded Yamada). You can figure running 100 PSI head pressures. Look at the flow rate difference between 10 CFM and 20 CFM makes in the curve below. You can also see the difference between running 100 PSI head pressures and 70 PSI head pressures makes at 10 CFM. Increasing the CFM and dropping the line pressure by increasing the discharge hose size both significantly increase the amount of flow through the pump. As it sits now, you have about a 5 GPM pump...even though it is *capable*  of just under 30 GPM. You paid for a high flow air system but you are getting the equivalent of a $129 electric...albeit with a lot more reliability.  

Now...compare this to a Yamada NDP-15 1/2" pump curve...

Look at the flow rate at the same 100 PSI but with 10 CFM. It is HIGHER than on your 3/4" pump. This is because instead of barely meeting the CFM requirements of the pump, you are now right into the fat middle section. With your same compressor, the smaller pump would give you 3 GPM higher flow. Look at the 3/4" pump again and increase the air to 20 CFM and a lowered head pressure using 3/4" spray line. Now your pump flow is actually higher. That is what CFM will give you. It also explains why using larger spray hose on the 1/2" pump makes sense...you are lowering the head pressures down and it is like a free compressor upgrade. 

As for feed line size...that is probably the only area I don't agree on with Gary. Air pumps, as long as you feed the pump with the same size hose as the input manifold size, should deliver full output as rated in the performance curve assuming you don't have an extreme lift situation beyond the rated lift capability (18' vertical dry with 1" input line in the case of the 3/4" Yamada). They are engineered to do this in a manufacturing environment with like fluid line sizing. I run a ton of different 1" pumps on my test rig and we get the max output from the pumps running 1" feed lines on timed flow tests. My current favorite 1" pumps (Sandpiper II SF-1 pumps) should deliver 40 GPM at the pressure and CFM rate I am running it on with the line pressure I am running it on according to the flow chart. I get...40 GPM open flow with 1" feed and discharge lines. I'd love to run 1" spray lines but they are pretty heavy so I run 3/4" spray lines and that drops me down to about 35 GPM (I have the excess CFM on my compressor to overcome the increased head pressure and max out the pump). 

The larger feed hose is more relevant on electric pumps in my experience since they have highly restricted flow rates and generally poor lift capabilities. It is also relevant when using a pump with flap or duck valves which need to run flooded section...but most AODD pumps are ball valves and have more than enough lift capability to pull through the rated input line size. I run 1/2" lines on my pump shop test rig with 1/2" pumps and they also pass rated flows with my shop compressor. If they don't...99 times out of 100 it is because the ball valves or air end components are worn and leaky.  

Mind you...it won't HURT to have larger line, but 1.5" PVC suction line is a pain in the Derrier to deal with.  

Edited July 30, 2015 by PeakOfPerfection

[woody70]

Here's my two cents.  May not be worth that though, lol.  I'm running a 1" pump, with the harbor freight 30 gal air compressor.  I have 3/4" spray hose and 1" fluid lines.  I have multiple tanks and a fluid manifold that lets me switch to different tanks.  But for the sake of simplicity, let's forget the multiple tanks and fluid manifold.  For testing purposes, from one of my 275 gallon totes, I have a 1" suction line going directly to the 1" pump.  From pump there is a 1" line going to Hannay reel with 200 ft of 3/4" spray hose with a Master Nozzle.  I was running 50' of 1/2" air hose to an air manifold that has a 20 CFM Tsunami water separator, then to a regulator/filter (set at 90 psi), then to the 1" pump.  

When I first got my system up and running I was expecting 50' spray distance, BARE MINIMUM.  I got 35'.  Needless to say I was not a happy camper. I double checked everything, noticed the pump I purchased was leaking like crazy.  Tightened all the bolts down on the wet end of pump and stop those leaks.  Notice Tsunami is not catching any water, but regulator/filter is slap full of water.  That's the Tsunami's job and its supposed to be the best of the market at doing it, but mine wasn't catching any.  Come to find out, my air lines are incredibly hot.  And being in south Louisiana with the heat and humidity isn't helping.  Put the 50' of air hose in a bucket of water and the Tsunami starts working better.  It's catching about 1/2 of the water and the regulator/filter is catching the other 1/2 of water.  Tsunami should be catching most of the water though not just half.  I call Tsunami, they say move up to a 50 CFM.  My entire air system is 1/2" throughout, but the Tsunami 20 CFM has 1/4" inlet and outlets.  Tsunami says this is a problem and that I'm right on the edge of the CFM total for the HF compressor (19 CFM).   The 50 CFM model has 1/2" in and out.  I says, OK, and order 50 CFM.  Get it installed and it captures about 90% of the water now.  Much, much better and I'm spraying 40' distance now.  Exact same setup, just changed out water separator and got another 5'.  And yes, I have the entire 200 ft of spray hose unreeled when I'm doing these tests.  Still I should be getting more distance from what EVERYONE else is saying.  I can't remember where on here, but I think someone was hitting 70' with a 1" setup and a HF compressor.  That may be the exception to the rule, but 50' is the minimum I've seen for a 1" setup.  

Make some more inquiries via phone calls to various people/members and as soon as I said 1" suction lines, they said "That's your problem".  Consensus was to move to 1 1/2" suction lines and if you want to get crazy go to 2" lines.  What the heck, let's get crazy and see what happens.  I get some plain ole 2" white sch 40 pvc for a quick test setup.  I can hear all the gasps and murmuring across the Internet already!  He's using sch 40, white pvc!!  It's possible the world could end.  LOL, it was only used for a few minutes for testing and it's cheap.  For anyone new, don't use Sch 40, white PVC in your system for a long term setup.  Anyway, I hook up 2" suction line directly to pump (reduced it down to 1" at pump), put about 50 gallons water in tank and fired it up.  I got 50'.  Hooray, I've finally got what I should have been getting all along.  Now I need to either move everything over to a 2" system (lines, fluid manifold, etc.) or possibly see what  1 1/2" lines would get me.  Either way, I don't have the funds to completely retrofit everything with new lines and connectors.   So, I'll probably go with my 1" fluid lines and 40' distance for the first few jobs.  

Speaking of which, I'm having a devil of a time getting my fluid lines to not leak.  Ordered fluid lines as a package and all of them leaked.  Took them to Parker Hose and they redid them.  Son of a guns still leaked.  Leak is coming from where the hose snugs up to the camlock, not the camlock itself.  Took them back and they used big double bands this time.  Suction hoses don't leak, but the fluid line that goes from pump to reel (one that is under a little bit of pressure) still leaks.  Parker Hose is baffled.  Say there is no way those things should leak.  Now I'm trying to find a guaranteed no leak hose solution.  This entire setup seems to have been fighting me every step of the way.  I've learned a lot of lessons the hard way and it has cost me way more money that it should have.  Oh well, lessons learned.  

So, to highlight: (IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY, if not screw it.  You dog gone go with what you got, get a few jobs done and then upgrade as budget allows.)

Buy biggest compressor you can, preferably 18-20 CFM

If you are using a 1/2" air manifold, go with the Tsunami 50 CFM model

Get 50' air hose and put it in a bucket of water or if you have a water tank stick it in there.  Gotta get the air cooled down for the water separator to work correctly.

Go with at least 1.5 - 2 X size bigger fluid lines than your pump size.

Use 3/4" spray hose.  If not in the budget, go one size down.  

Master nozzle will get you an extra couple of feet distance in reality.  Don't expect it to add 5-10 ft. 

Bunch of other stuff, but this covers the main ones.  I tried to get everything perfect on my build and it cost me a lot of time and money.  And it wasn't close to being perfect.  If you have a working system, go work.  Upgrade as needed.  

Edited July 30, 2015 by woody70

[woody70]

BTW, when our schedules allow, will have to grab some lunch.

[Apple Roof Cleaning (813) 655-8777]

The 30 gallon HF Air Compressor will run the 1 inch air pumps, but will not max them out.   When maximum shooting distance is desired, you need to have plenty of air, so the pump can develop the performance you expect of it.

This is why Kevin Enderle and Gary both run "monster" air compressors. 

[carlsoda]

Woody. Sounds good. Give me a call 225.678.8716

 

Peak. I am interested in a 1/2 inch pump now. You sell them or recommend where I can get one?That seems a better route than spending 2k on a bigger compressor. Once I get some roofs under my belt I will get a bigger compressor. What about regulators you guys mention. I never thought to get one... I'm not sure I understand regulators

Edited August 3, 2015 by carlsoda