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Jeff

Over Priced Cleaners

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Chris,..I chose to post this on your board because I know you're a fan of what works,..cost not being a factor. I've seen you take heat by telling people about certain products you can buy locally that work just as well as these small vendors are selling for 5x as much. For instance,... you use,..and have had many, many guys use Gain dish liquid for their roof soap. Cheap and effective. You're a fan of products you can buy locally,..as many people are.  You're mindset is what I call "nuts and bolts" ,...running a business isn't about supporting the vendors that advertise on these boards. It's about supporting yourself and doing what's best for your own situation.  On the other boards I am seeing a handful of guys who almost seem like they're paid off in the products they're promoting.  A couple of the products that are being highly touted are no better than "stuff" I can buy locally,..yet people are touting these overpriced products as super great and worth every penny.  

Example: I tried  $50 a gallon F9 the other day on a concrete driveway,..it didn't work as good as my typical aluminum brightener,..not even close. Aluminum brightener is Hydroflouric/Sulfuric blend,..and I get it from a local PW supplier for $48.00 a 5 gallon bucket. I gave the F9 a chance and tried it on a few other test areas,..it worked no better than the aluminum brightener,..or even oxalic.  

Now I see there is some "Dragon Juice"" that costs like $60.00 a gallon,..and I bet it's no better than the large branded products like Purple Power($19.00 for 5 Gallon),..especially if you add some Sodium Hydroxide to the PP. It seems to be one product after another being introduced, and way over priced.  These small vendors are most likely making these products in house and slapping a label on them.  Whereas, big companies can make the same or even  better products for ALOT cheaper due to volume. 

As far as supporting these vendors,..I regard them the same way I do my local vendor,..you have to complete within a certain percentage,..and that's where my loyalty ends. I show you the same courtesy you show me. People talk about them answering the phone when you call with questions like it's a big deal,...they are salesman,..and them taking your call is marketing,..say what you want,..but these guys are in it for sales. That's not to say they probably make friends with certain guys,.but as a whole they're in it to sell their products.

Ammonyx LO and Ammonyx MO were both "discovered" for our uses at the old RCIA board,..yet vendors sale it as their in house brand. And is most likely watered down, as most will never know because they don't know what the "real" LO or MO looks like. 

*I'm waiting for one these genius vendors to come up with a new mold killer named who knows what. And they sell you some 6% SH and an additive for $20.00 a gallon Plus $10.00 Shipping,.. And some of these guys will buy it and tout it up as being so much better than regular SH and Gain. 

*I didn't want to start a bunch of crap on the other boards,...just tired of the hype over these products. 

Jeff

 

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Take a look at "Thirty Second" cleaner. It is bleach and TSP...with a video kiosk. 

I have no problem with guys trying to make products available for sale. If they can get the prices, then more power to them. Unfortunately, we live in an information age and people who want to roll their own can do so.

One thing to also realize is that not everybody in the country has a place where they can buy chemicals like raw Myristamine and Lauramine oxide. I buy both from my local chem house. On a project where you need more than what Gain can provide, a premade product might be that contractor's only option. 

I do agree about keep pricing sane, but also realize that there are other costs involved in marketing and selling a product besides a bucket with a label and the UPS bill. The CapX to bring enough bulk in alone, plus facilities, packaging, etc. will dissuade a lot of guys. That being said, the market will dictate when something is overpriced.  

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While I was looking into mold remediation last year I came across this product at 15 bucks a gallon-bleach and soap, big rip off.

http://www.rapidmoldremover.com/

30 seconds cleaner-10 bucks a gallon-5% household strength bleach.

I did buy F9 and I thought it was great although Ihave never use oxalic, yet.

 

 

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I am not begrudging anyone making a hefty profit, ...and,..as Kevin stated ..good for them.  I guess what I get irritated about is the constant touting of these products that are really no better than many things we can buy through other sources,..and these guys doing the touting are in my opinion paid "salesman" to boast the product which equates to possible sales on a board full of sheep who want be a pro so they  go with what the pros use. And try to goad others with the "loyalty" angle.  These boards are for trading information, but some of it sounds like an infomercial. Although the vendors may "support" the boards,..In reality , that's a two way street,...because the members do buy from them,.including me, it's cheap advertising for them, reaching ALOT of people,..so it's to their benefit as much as anything else. There are many vendors for pumps,hoses,cleaners etc..that don't come on the boards,..and many of us use them as well. 

In one case I was fair: I was buying a pump from another online vendor,..way better deal than I could get from The Power Wash Store,...anyhow,..Paul, I think it was,...offered me the same deal if I bought from them,..so I said ok.  They did have the best deal on Honda engines at the time,..which is what I called to order in the first place.

Also,..don't get me wrong on the F9,..I was really hoping it would be a BETTER product,..I didn't care about the cost,..that's why I bought it,.....if it was better that's what matters,...but in my use it was no better and not even as good as the hydrofluoric/sulfuric blend aluminum brightener.  Not saying it doesn't work,..it's just not worth the hype,..or cost for that matter. 

I think anyone reading these boards has access to Ammonyx LO,..it's sold at  online for $65.00 ,..with shipping,..for me it's $98.00. 

And any decent aluminum brightener with HF in it will work on rust and/or fertilizer stains, etc...

And oxalic is about $80.00 50 lBS. at Univar,..and works in most cases anyhow,..especially on rust stains on vinyl siding and even shingles. Many of the pictures I see of F9 isn't anything alot of us have been doing since way before F9.  

http://www.saveoncitric.com/laox5ga.html

Jeff

Edited by Jeff

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One thing to be careful with if you roll your own surfactant is quantity. Some surfactants like Myristamine Oxide are very VERY sticky and if you get overspray on your plants/paint/deck/etc. and rinse, it still won't come off. The key is to experiment with quantities and use VERY little until you adjust. If you dump in the same amount as you did when you use Gain, you'll be nuking everything around the house. Be judicious and also be VERY careful if you add to an existing mix. 

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Hey Kevin,..although I don't use a soapy soap  in my mix,..like Ammonyx or Gain,..the advice you've given here is correct.

*I use Trisodium Phosphate or Sodium Bicarbonate,..both enhance SH,.. .and they both have a degree of cleaning power,..with TSP being the more powerful of the two. But simple Sodium Bicarbonate has a small amount of alkalinity,.... although it's not a strong cleaner,...it has worked well for me for several years now on roofs that aren't terrible,..and dissolves very easily.

Jeff

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Hey Kevin,..although I don't use a soapy soap  in my mix,..like Ammonyx or Gain,..the advice you've given here is correct.

*I use Trisodium Phosphate or Sodium Bicarbonate,..both enhance SH,.. .and they both have a degree of cleaning power,..with TSP being the more powerful of the two. But simple Sodium Bicarbonate has a small amount of alkalinity,.... although it's not a strong cleaner,...it has worked well for me for several years now on roofs that aren't terrible,..and dissolves very easily.

Jeff

We can't really use TSP in our area due to the ban on phosphate bearing cleaners. Also, the majority of our roofs are Asphalt in our area and use of strong degreasers is not recommended. 

Bicarb...interesting! Any issue with residues? I'd think you'd have to be really careful with runoff...even more so than normal, since you are adding even more sodium to the mix. 

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No issues with the the bicarbonate at all.  Been doing that for a long time,..ever since the days of the old RCIA board.  

99% of the roofs we do are asphalt shingles.

 TSP doesn't attack the asphalt the same way sodium hydroxide does,...and is the way asphalt roofs are recommended to be done by the manufacturers,..I think Chris will still agree TSP is the best detergent you can put in a roof mix.

Jeff

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No issues with the the bicarbonate at all.  Been doing that for a long time,..ever since the days of the old RCIA board.  

99% of the roofs we do are asphalt shingles.

 TSP doesn't attack the asphalt the same way sodium hydroxide does,...and is the way asphalt roofs are recommended to be done by the manufacturers,..I think Chris will still agree TSP is the best detergent you can put in a roof mix.

Jeff

Its just a super PIA to mix. Power mixed or hand mixed I always end up with a bunch of undissolved product in the bottom of the bucket.

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Not so bad if you use hot water.  Save 5 gallon buckets,...and keep mixed up TSP on hand at all times. I agree, trying to mix it when you need it isn't fun. But,..it is still the best detergent you can mix into your SH for roof cleaning. 

Jeff

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