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Udor Zeta Zeta 85 P and Zeta 40 Roof Cleaning Pumps ?

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chris you're absolutely a stand up guy, spray force would not have the success that it has had to date without your help. Utor has obviously made many changes to thier pumps.

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chris you're absolutely a stand up guy, spray force would not have the success that it has had to date without your help. Utor has obviously made many changes to thier pumps.

From the reported success several roof cleaners have reported with the UDOR Roof Cleaning Pump, it would appear that UDOR has indeed made some changes. 

 

I remember back when Paul Kassander first left Eviro Spec, and went out on his own. Paul contacted me, and wanted my feedback on some roof cleaning chemicals he planned to market someday. That impressed the heck out of me Dennis, and sort of formed the impression, in my mind, that Paul Kassander truly wanted to sell the very best roof cleaning equipment.

 

Most distributors simply slap their name on stuff, with little regard to if, and how well it works. Paul was different, and he sought out my opinion. 

 

I trust Paul Kassander Dennis, and if his right hand Man Bill Wilson says Paul Kassander "put's his name on the UDOR Roof Cleaning Pump", I think people have little to fear, in the event of a warranty related pump failure.

 

In reality, NOTHING is "forever" in the land of the roof cleaning pump. So,  in reality, whatever roof cleaning products we as roof cleaners decide to buy, we are really buying the company, because ultimately, it will be them who take care, or fail to take care of us, when the equipment breaks.

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I think it says a lot that they won't honor their warranty. If it breaks and they don't stand behind it, I'm not really inclined to spend money with them. It's terrible that they don't. Maybe some people have it good, but it seems there is a better way!

Paul Kassander has promised to stand behind these pumps Adam, and he has a good reputation. I just hope he does not get himself into trouble, especially with leaks.

Anyone considering a Gas Powered pump should know is this, these pumps need to have a bypass hose, to bypass the pressure and flow, when the gun is closed. Normally, you bypass back into the roof cleaning mix tank, and this has some advantages, because it provides for a degree of agitation, and keeps your shit all mixed up. LOL, once, I added a lot of surfactant to my mix, and shut down my gun when on a steep ass roof. The pump kept bypassing into the tank, and chlorinated suds was all over the place  

Also, be sure and install a really good quality bypass fitting on your tank, because the bypass hoses are known to PULSE, and this pulsing can easily wear out, and snap the bypass hose connection to your tank. I kinda hate when this happens, because it will marinate 1/2 a city block with a spray of chlorine, before you can get to it, to turn the dam thing off.

LOL, I once ran a Hypro Ag Pump to spray chlorine with. It also has a poly coated aluminum head. The poly cracked, the pressureized Chlorine actually bored a hole right through the unprotected metal head, and was shooting a pin hole sized stream of roof cleaning chemical, 60 feet in the air  

We all have our own experiences with equipment, some positive, and some negative. Honestly, the first time I ever laid eyes on a Water Dragon equipped with the UDOR Pump I had all the problems with, I shuddered. Because not only did it fail quickly, it also leaked chlorine all over the place, before it started to quit. I finished many a roof cleaning job, with several towels wrapped around the UDOR. But, my trucks are dedicated only to cleaning roofs, no pressure washing stuff on them at all. I had visions of chlorine leaking all over the place, and ruining the burner and other parts of the Water Dragon.

The UDOR's must be greatly improved, from the ones I owned several years ago.

Still, and this is only my personal opinion, based on over 20 years of roof cleaning experience, I would not want my beautiful new Water Dragon, anywhere near a chlorine delivery system, of any kind. Chlorine, IME, will find a way to leak, with bad effects on anything metal it touches.

I understand the wish of some to save space, and have a do it all skid they can slap in the back of a pick up truck.

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Yeah, I have found Paul and Bill at powerwashstore to be a great stand up company. I own the dual pump setup, and despite not being a major hotrod and having a few limitations, it does what I need. Like you said, it also fits into a small footprint on my trailer. 

 

I can imagine the sinking feeling of seeing roof mix shooting 60' in the air! Oh boy, lol. 

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Yeah, I have found Paul and Bill at powerwashstore to be a great stand up company. I own the dual pump setup, and despite not being a major hotrod and having a few limitations, it does what I need. Like you said, it also fits into a small footprint on my trailer. 

 

I can imagine the sinking feeling of seeing roof mix shooting 60' in the air! Oh boy, lol.

Both Paul Kassander, and Bill Wilson at the Powerwash Store have a good reputation, I just hope they have not bit off more then they can chew, standing behind the UDOR Pump. I have no doubts they will NEVER tell a customer to basically get screwed, as UDOR did to me when it came warranty time, but I hate to see anyone lose money.

If I bought a Water Dragon setup, and the UDOR Pump leaked Chlorine all over my new pressure washer, and hot water heater/burner, I would be pissed! Just repairing the leaking or broken UDOR Pump if all fine and good, but what about what all that leaking Chlorine will do to my brand new Water Dragon ?

Once the rust process starts, you can't all of the sudden stop it. One reason why when I lived back in Detroit, I had an old piece of shit car, to drive in the winter, when salt was all over the road.

I did not want my muscle cars all rusted out, so they were garaged in the winter, and only driven in the summer.

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KO1097   

I'd like to add some comments on this topic.  Full disclosure, I work for Comet diaphragm pumps.  AND, we learned of the softwash market only after our first pump failed miserably.

 

First off, it is important to dissect the issues you've had with the ZETA 40 rather than writing off semi-hydraulic diaphragm pumps entirely.  The problems with leaking manifolds have nothing to do with the stainless steel or corrosion.  The ZETA 40 uses barstock to machine the poly heads.  To UV stabilize barstock is very expensive and I would be surprised if its been done based on the price of the pump, but I cannot say for sure.  Then you have to consider that the TRIANGULAR manifolds are bolted directly into the plastic heads.  Even with female thread inserts, this is a recipe for disaster.  The triangular manifolds will vibrate from turbulence because of the sharp elbows and eventually come loose.  Especially, if the plastic is not stabile.  Our P36 pump is entirely injection molded using UV stabilized polypropylene.  Because of this, we were able to design the heads with a nut/bolt system so that the manifolds can't come loose.  In addition, we've made hexagonal manifolds so there is very little vibration.  And finally, our cost is lower because of the injection molded parts.  YOU WILL NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH LEAKING MANIFOLDS AND WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE CUSTOMER THAT ISN'T PLEASED WITH OUR PUMPS!!!!!!!

 

As for the stainless steel, you are absolutely correct.  It is not compatible with anything over 20% hypochlorite and every chemical chart says something different. YOU WILL eventually be replacing springs and other stainless parts.  However, I would say that if you compare that to replacing and repairing compressors, these pumps win.

 

As for warranty, corrosion is not manufacturer's defect because no manufacturer can control what will be sprayed.  We can only say what the materials are.  Leaking manifolds are manufacturer's defect so long as it is not due to corrosion from an incompatible material.

 

If anyone would like to discuss further, please call me at 800-864-1649 ext. 251.  Additionally, I will give you a list of distributors from all over the country that will stand behind my pump based on the results they've had.

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I'd like to add some comments on this topic.  Full disclosure, I work for Comet diaphragm pumps.  AND, we learned of the softwash market only after our first pump failed miserably.

 

First off, it is important to dissect the issues you've had with the ZETA 40 rather than writing off semi-hydraulic diaphragm pumps entirely.  The problems with leaking manifolds have nothing to do with the stainless steel or corrosion.  The ZETA 40 uses barstock to machine the poly heads.  To UV stabilize barstock is very expensive and I would be surprised if its been done based on the price of the pump, but I cannot say for sure.  Then you have to consider that the TRIANGULAR manifolds are bolted directly into the plastic heads.  Even with female thread inserts, this is a recipe for disaster.  The triangular manifolds will vibrate from turbulence because of the sharp elbows and eventually come loose.  Especially, if the plastic is not stabile.  Our P36 pump is entirely injection molded using UV stabilized polypropylene.  Because of this, we were able to design the heads with a nut/bolt system so that the manifolds can't come loose.  In addition, we've made hexagonal manifolds so there is very little vibration.  And finally, our cost is lower because of the injection molded parts.  YOU WILL NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH LEAKING MANIFOLDS AND WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE CUSTOMER THAT ISN'T PLEASED WITH OUR PUMPS!!!!!!!

 

As for the stainless steel, you are absolutely correct.  It is not compatible with anything over 20% hypochlorite and every chemical chart says something different. YOU WILL eventually be replacing springs and other stainless parts.  However, I would say that if you compare that to replacing and repairing compressors, these pumps win.

 

As for warranty, corrosion is not manufacturer's defect because no manufacturer can control what will be sprayed.  We can only say what the materials are.  Leaking manifolds are manufacturer's defect so long as it is not due to corrosion from an incompatible material.

 

If anyone would like to discuss further, please call me at 800-864-1649 ext. 251.  Additionally, I will give you a list of distributors from all over the country that will stand behind my pump based on the results they've had.

First off - Thank You very much for coming on the forum, and you are quite welcome to post what you have to sell to us roof cleaners, free of charge!

I had nothing but problems with the UDOR Pump, and they refused to honor the warranty they gave me, after 4 failures!

Of course, that was some time ago, and to be fair, people I know also had some problems with the Comet Pumps from nearly 8 years ago.

But if you feel the pump will hold up, post your experiences, and reasons.

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KO1097   

As I mentioned, we did have problems with our MC18 pump.  NOT a good experience!  But the P36 has not been out longer than about three years so those problems you mention are definitely not the P36.  As for selling on here, I really do feel that I'm just helping to clear up the issue of semi-hydraulic diaphragm pumps and that your readers could benefit.  Thanks for the forum to do so.

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As I mentioned, we did have problems with our MC18 pump.  NOT a good experience!  But the P36 has not been out longer than about three years so those problems you mention are definitely not the P36.  As for selling on here, I really do feel that I'm just helping to clear up the issue of semi-hydraulic diaphragm pumps and that your readers could benefit.  Thanks for the forum to do so.

The Guys LOVE it when a manufacturer comes on here, and I agree, the pressure a gas pump generates is a very useful thing.

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I'd like to add some comments on this topic.  Full disclosure, I work for Comet diaphragm pumps.  AND, we learned of the softwash market only after our first pump failed miserably.

 

First off, it is important to dissect the issues you've had with the ZETA 40 rather than writing off semi-hydraulic diaphragm pumps entirely.  The problems with leaking manifolds have nothing to do with the stainless steel or corrosion.  The ZETA 40 uses barstock to machine the poly heads.  To UV stabilize barstock is very expensive and I would be surprised if its been done based on the price of the pump, but I cannot say for sure.  Then you have to consider that the TRIANGULAR manifolds are bolted directly into the plastic heads.  Even with female thread inserts, this is a recipe for disaster.  The triangular manifolds will vibrate from turbulence because of the sharp elbows and eventually come loose.  Especially, if the plastic is not stabile.  Our P36 pump is entirely injection molded using UV stabilized polypropylene.  Because of this, we were able to design the heads with a nut/bolt system so that the manifolds can't come loose.  In addition, we've made hexagonal manifolds so there is very little vibration.  And finally, our cost is lower because of the injection molded parts.  YOU WILL NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH LEAKING MANIFOLDS AND WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE CUSTOMER THAT ISN'T PLEASED WITH OUR PUMPS!!!!!!!

 

As for the stainless steel, you are absolutely correct.  It is not compatible with anything over 20% hypochlorite and every chemical chart says something different. YOU WILL eventually be replacing springs and other stainless parts.  However, I would say that if you compare that to replacing and repairing compressors, these pumps win.

 

As for warranty, corrosion is not manufacturer's defect because no manufacturer can control what will be sprayed.  We can only say what the materials are.  Leaking manifolds are manufacturer's defect so long as it is not due to corrosion from an incompatible material.

 

If anyone would like to discuss further, please call me at 800-864-1649 ext. 251.  Additionally, I will give you a list of distributors from all over the country that will stand behind my pump based on the results they've had.

Definitely welcome. My question is not necessarily the design of the pump, but the material choice. Polypropylene, even UV stabilized virgin poly, is negatively effected by Chlorine. The failures guys have with Poly electric and air pump fluid chambers are well known and documented. Regardless of what poly you use, the simple fact is that Chlorine and chlorinated liquids will eventually weeken and fail the fluid path. Roof cleaners typically run anywhere from 3-6.5% Sodium Hypochlorite mixes...far far stronger than the typical 1% house mix used in the pressure washer industry. It is for this reason that many pumps, which worked fine for soft washing, failed rapidly when applied to roof cleaning. 

 

(PVDF) is a known best plastic material for use with high corrosion chemicals. It is also inherently UV stable. Have you researched what the additional cost would be to manufacture you pumps using Kynar fluid chambers? 

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KO1097   

Interesting feedback PeakofPerfection!  All I can say is that I have not had one single problem with the polypro that didn't involve someone throwing a hose or gun into the truck and cracking it.  They are using straight pool grade chorine at 10.5%.   In addition, polypropylene gets a "B" or "good" rating with 100% sodium hypochorite and an "A" or "excellent" with up to 20% (http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance) and that has been our experience.  Any more than 20% would cause our diaphragms to fail and I don't think we've sold 2 in a year and a half.

 

What could cloud the issue is temperature.  PVDF is definitely better for higher temps, but again, our diaphragms would fail at 150 F and we're not seeing that.

 

Just my $.02.

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I am aware of what some of the chemical database says about Poly. Some like it for Sodium Hypochlorite use, and some don't.

All I can say is this, most roof cleaners use KYNAR pumps. Poly lasts awhile, if rinsed out, but it is not Kynar.

By the way, what Comet Pump are we talking about ? I get confused, there seem to be a bunch of different Comet Roof Cleaning Pumps.

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Interesting feedback PeakofPerfection!  All I can say is that I have not had one single problem with the polypro that didn't involve someone throwing a hose or gun into the truck and cracking it.  They are using straight pool grade chorine at 10.5%.   In addition, polypropylene gets a "B" or "good" rating with 100% sodium hypochorite and an "A" or "excellent" with up to 20% (http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance) and that has been our experience.  Any more than 20% would cause our diaphragms to fail and I don't think we've sold 2 in a year and a half.

 

What could cloud the issue is temperature.  PVDF is definitely better for higher temps, but again, our diaphragms would fail at 150 F and we're not seeing that.

 

Just my $.02.

It is very unlikely somebody is pumping straight 10.5% SH on roofs or siding. If they are they are idiots and likely leaving a trail of destruction to landscaping and roofs! More likely they are diluting it down to house mix around 1%. The question is....how many are using your pumps for ROOF CLEANING which uses a 3-6% mix? Soft wash pumps that work for years as house mix pumps can be torn apart by roof mixes which not only use much stronger mixes but also in far greater quantities vs an operation which does siding cleaning.

Chemical resistance ratings do vary from site to site. Poly is rated good on Cole Parmer but C or even D on other sites. Santoprene is similar with it being rated as immune on one and just passible on others. Practical in field experience has shown that it does degrade in roof cleaning pumps. Some of that may have to do with the pressure and flow VS. Static non pressurized applications.

I notice wear in poly parts in the feed lines such as cam locks vs virtually nothing in tanks. Many many many polypropylene electric pumps have sprung holes after fluid chambers were eroded through. Seems like the more pressure, the faster this happens. Some have had fluid chamber failures on poly air diaphragm pumps. Consistent with these findings...

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/Tech%20Topics/General/Chemical%20Resistance.pdf

It is for this reason that roof cleaners look towards Kynar pumps which, with our particular application, seems to hold up extremely well over multi year periods.

To be absolutely fair, the grade of poly you use may have something to do with this. You may be using a far higher grade and you seem confident. But, then the question has to be begged, are you confident enough to include failure from chemical erosion as part of the warranty? Limit it to no more than 15% which is the absolute strongest seed stock yiu can buy. I am sure more roof cleaners would be interested in the investment with that in place.

I am interested as somebody who sells a fair number of air pumps, in any alternatives.

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KO1097   

I am speaking about the Comet P36 (

http://valleyind.com/_images/P36_Sellsheet.pdf).

 

As for warranty against corrosion, that is impossible due to the huge number of variables that would be beyond our control.  However, I would be very interested in working together on a field test.  Perhaps Chris at Apple Roof Cleaning would be the best option as the moderator.  Any interest Chris?  I could either send the pump to you or have you work with a local distributor on the mixture.  Perhaps just run the liquid through the pump in a closed loop and document the results over time.  I would be just as interested as anyone to see if the results we're having in softwash translate to roof cleaning.

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This is my opinion! i ran air for 5yrs and never had one problem with the air pump, we had problems with the compressors. We went though 3 in 5 years, 2 of these were ridgid and the last one was custum built. We have used the udor for a yr and not one problem and we went though some bleach this yr. I like the udor because of the size, so we will see.

Have you still had continued success with the Udor Zeta?

Thanks

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Air compressors...lit is worth investing in a good one. If you run a Piston compressor, Eaton or Quincy are my first choice. Compressors like the Rigid are Chinese built and designed for homeowner or light contractor use. They are not designed to last year's and years running 8 hours a day. There is a reason an Eaton or Quincy run what they run. You pay more up front, but they cost less. 

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I am speaking about the Comet P36 (

http://valleyind.com/_images/P36_Sellsheet.pdf).

 

As for warranty against corrosion, that is impossible due to the huge number of variables that would be beyond our control.  However, I would be very interested in working together on a field test.  Perhaps Chris at Apple Roof Cleaning would be the best option as the moderator.  Any interest Chris?  I could either send the pump to you or have you work with a local distributor on the mixture.  Perhaps just run the liquid through the pump in a closed loop and document the results over time.  I would be just as interested as anyone to see if the results we're having in softwash translate to roof cleaning.

If I were still working, I might take you up on that offer, but I am retired now. My Son and my employees do all the work, and do not like me messing with their equipment. Air pumps do all we need for 90% of the roof cleaning work that we do, here in Tampa. 

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We run the Udor everyday as I direct apply my cleaning solution,as Lisa will rinse behind me. We do 2 to 5 jobs a day in the cleaning season and have not one problem with this unit. This is my 3rd season with the Udor and love the pump and footprint of it.

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